International Entrance Fees

Rob Walsh · Post by **Rob Walsh** » 04 Jan 2009, 14:49

Was wondering who was planning to go to Barbados for the IOM Worlds. Also wondering people opinion on the Â£350 entrance fee! As my view is this is now getting silly.
My first IOM international race cost Â£80 at Fleetwood for the EC, how can we now be at Â£350 especially when the racing has not got better due to the Umpiring.
This in my eyes is the reason why it costs so much!

The best International race that i have been to by far was the RM Worlds at Fleetwood where we used the buddy system. This has been recognised by skippers as a good system hence why in Marseille the skippers protested and got that system used! This race was also alot cheaper than the international IOM races!

So I was wondering .Why is it so expensive?

Why are organisational committees not listening to the competitors as at the end of the day we will pay what we have too if we want to go to compete.
Howeve r not when things are not getting better!

Would like your views!

Sen Peter Gilkes · Post by **Sen Peter Gilkes** » 04 Jan 2009, 17:11

Dear Mr Walsh,

I think if you were to review the cost of entry to other previous Worlds you would realise that the cost of this event is no more than any other event.

You may not realise it but the cost of your entry fee alone will not by any stretch cover the cost of hosting an event of this size, when one considers the cost of bringing judges to Barbados and providing accommodation and taking care of them during their stay, or the cost of setting up a suitable base from which to carry out the sailing, or the cost of storage etc.

Let me assure you that we have done our work from this end and the budget is much higher than the proceeds of the entry fee and being a good business person as I am sure you are, we have had to find a way to finance the difference but were it to come from the entry fee alone your fee would be more the double what it presently is.

Also you ought to remember that a part of this fee goes towards the IOMICA organization and there is a telecommunications fee payable to the Government of Barbados which has all been included and yet still it does not exceed the cost of the entry fee for the last two Worlds events.

Having come onboard rather late in the program and having been asked to host this event we are doing so from a position where we are uncertain to gather the type of support, sponsorship and financing required to support this venture but we as a group will make sure that it is successful even if personal efforts have to be made to do so.

Trust that this has helped to calm your fears on the matter, we look forward to welcoming you to Barbados in June for a great regatta and a great holiday.

Best regards,
Sen Peter Gilkes

Bruce Andersen · Post by **Bruce Andersen** » 05 Jan 2009, 04:50

I agree with the Senator - typically the IOM World Championships run 60-80K USD and the entry fee covers a small fraction of that cost.

RoyL · Post by **RoyL** » 05 Jan 2009, 05:31

Funny thing is I agree with both sides here. I do think that the World's entry fee is in line with previous events and I know that it does not cover the costs of the event.

At the same time, I also think that we need to take a hard look at the IOM World's and try to figure out a way to lower the overall costs. Off the top of my head, a shorter event with less competitors could help contain costs. Similarly, finding an alternative to the current umpire system could also lead to savings.

The big question is what does the class want? I've heard some people who say that the Worlds are special and they expect a big event with lots of competitors and formal opening and closing dinners. I've seen another plan that would call for a Worlds that would have a limited entry list (three fleets) and run for less than a week. People in support of that plan say the Worlds should only be for the best and should be something to aspire to and feature lots of competitive racing.

One thing everyone does seem to want is a new umpiring system. I also like the buddy system, but at the same time I know many who find it highly problematic. I don't think we can keep on paying to fly in umpires who then can't get up to speed on how to judge an IOM race until the event is almost over.

So, to sum it all up, I know the exec and the events committee is ready, willing and able to make changes in how the class runs major events. What we need is input from all of you, the members. Without your input we are banging around in the dark. Let us know what you think.

Olivier Cohen · Post by **Olivier Cohen** » 05 Jan 2009, 09:24

Could you please describe what is the "buddy" system?

Thanks

Zoran · Post by **Zoran** » 05 Jan 2009, 20:24

Hi all,

I made some analysis on the entry fee on IOM events in last 8 years and I think that numbers will tell you lot.

USD EUR GBP
120 137 85 = WC 2001 OmiÅ¡alj CRO
117 125 80 = EC 2002 Fleetwood GBR
247 212 152 = WC 2003 Vancouver CAN
251 200 141 = EC 2004 Arcos ESP
384 313 210 = WC 2005 Moolalooba AUS
545 385 269 = WC 2007 Marseille FRA
470 350 271 = EC 2008 Dubrovnik CRO
500 365 343 = WC 2009 Barbados BAR

There is obviously tendency of increasing entry fee with every next event until Marseille, Dubrovnik and Barbados are slightly decreased in Euros in relation to Marseille while there is constant increase in GBP due to change of exchange rates. I used exchange rates applicable at the time of event found on the internet (except for Barbados, which of course uses today's rates).

I donâ€™t know the reason for Marseille to have the biggest entry fee in Euros but I am sure that it is not judges/umpires as number of judges/umpires there was smaller than on some other events that had smaller entry fee.

I can also not agree that judge/umpires are main cost of event. Average travel expenses per judge/umpire are about 500 EUR. Almost every organizer will get some sponsorship deal with hotel where most of competitors will be accommodated in way of gratis accommodation for officials. Complete costs of umpire team of 8 persons may then be 4000 EUR, while entry fee income with 350 EUR x 76 competitors will be 26600 EUR and as said before entry fee is just smaller part of total income.

Btw, the very first event listed (IOM WC 2001) had almost the lowest entry fee, but with the biggest number of umpires and all social events for competitors covered by the entry fee.

Rob Walsh · Post by **Rob Walsh** » 05 Jan 2009, 21:37

The buddy system is were a competitor teams up with a judge/umpire in a race. The competitor will call any contacts that he sees in his part of the fleet. If the boat (s) do not reply or resolve the incident quickly, the judge/umpire will give a penalty to who he thinks is in the wrong.

This has been succesfully used at the RM worlds @ Fleetwood and IOM Worlds at Marseille for the second half of the week!

Bruce Andersen · Post by **Bruce Andersen** » 06 Jan 2009, 06:53

This is a topic that deserves some attention. Traditionally, the WC's have been rather long to accomodate fleets to the maximum size allowed by HMS. There have been some suggestions that the WC's are getting too big, too ornate, and too expensive.

One suggestion that has been tossed around in the past and proposed by ESP for the 2009 WC's is a shorter regatta with a reduced fleet size while still having enough races to provide a fair test of sailors.

ESC has endorsed the large fleet/long regatta concept simply because it is traditional in IOM WC's.

Let's begin a discussion on the relative benefits of this concept, perhaps to be used in the various 2010 Continental Championships. Right off the bat, ESC would like to know:

Is the present format too long (1 week)
Is it too expensive ($500 USD)
Is the fleet size too large (76)

Should the WC be a large international gathering of IOMers or should it evolve into a smaller race of NCA champions? With 21 NCA's at present, we could theoretically take the top 2 skippers from each and have a 42 boat race - this translates to 3 heats (promote/relegate 6 boats per heat) that could be done in 3-4 days assuming the wind holds. This effectivly cuts the overhead cost in half although the transportation costs remain the same.

Opinions?

valpro · Post by **valpro** » 06 Jan 2009, 10:00

To pick up on Zoran's point, I said that one area where costs might be limited/reducedwas in the cost of the judges/umpires. It is, of course, only a part of the whole.
In organising a regatta, you tread a difficult line. Things cost what they cost and for the competitors, it is the entry fee plus travel and accommodation/food which is a greater burden on someone at Robbie's stage in life than for many older competitors and, eventually its his or their decision as to whether or not they can justify it.
As to regatta length I do think it should be a week and I do think that the entry should be open. The bigger the entry, the greater the chance of an affordable entry fee and it also means that many sailors who might not make the cut at qualifying time in a limited entry fleet, can go and learn enormously. That feeds back to the home fleet as well.
I would not be interested in a three day regatta that had cost me a small fortune to get to. Thanks, I can get that at home. But maybe we should look at how the full sized classes organise things, pay for them and get sponsors on board. Why, after all, re-invent the wheel? The information must be out there, especially about suitable venues, transport costs and methods of raising sponsorship and there must be enough of us that have been involved in those classes to have the contacts to ask. Just a suggestion.........
And lastly, it normally takes about 2 years to get everything in place to run a Worlds so, as I understand it, Barbados has had far less time than that so good luck chaps .

RoyL · Post by **RoyL** » 06 Jan 2009, 15:56

Just for clarification, the current World Championship format usually requires a two week commitment for an entrant. That includes time for travel to and from, measurement and practice days and a lay day in the middle of the regatta. The "shorter" formats that I have heard proposed would have measurement on a Saturday, sailing to begin the next day and racing to end the following Friday for six days of competition. As to the question of does a smaller fleet lead to a less expensive event, I've heard two sides to that question. A 44 boat fleet requires much less in the way of facilities, staff, and other support elements. At the same time, as pointed out certain aspects of the race (such as the international jury) cost the same no matter how may people attend.

All in all, I think Bruce has an interesting idea in suggesting that the next continental championships be run on a smaller scale. I think one other idea to consider if we want to go to a smaller World or Continental Championship is to perhaps hold a two day "mini-championship" race in connection with the big event that would be open to locals and a broader range of competitors.

Finally, on the judging question, it seems like this is something we need to deal with sooner rather than later.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » 07 Jan 2009, 11:47

In order to find a World or Continental Champion I yould think a minimum of 3 or 4 days is requiered just to remove the element of luck and yome out with the best skippers on top.

If you think of a 3 day race in conditions such as encountered in Dubrovnik and to some extent in Marseille you would end up with very little sailing and for example a technical failure possibly costing a championship due to the lack of discards.

Obviously it all depends on the number of skippers, but with 21 NCAs and say 2 from each NCA that still leaves you with 42 boats in three heats.

And I am not sure that halving the fleet will have a 50% impact on cost, while it will cut the total raised for entrance fees by 50%.

By the way, the entrance fee for the upcoming 10R EC is â‚¬ 250, so why not come along and sail some "big boats" .

Zoran · Post by **Zoran** » 07 Jan 2009, 12:46

I don't think that reducing the number of entries will reduce the organizing costs in the same percentage. I also agree that and event like European or World Championship needs 7 days and if you want to think about sponsorship then it is probably not easy to sell to the sponsor an event with limited number of participants and racing days.

Furthermore, there is currently system for allocation of places to the NCAs based on their results on the previous championship and it is not so easy to replace it by simple 21 NCAs x 2 competitors principle. You may also see that some NCAs rarely participate on WC or EC. If we keep the same principle of allocation of places, but just reduce the number of entries to 42 this will probably make much complicated qualification to the WC or EC by countries that are not usually on top. It should be IOMICA's task to promote IOM sailing in all his member countries and trying to keep as mush as possible real international status that currently no other RC class has.

As a possible solution to entry fee problem, IOMICA may set up a limit for entry fee or require from the organizer what has to be covered by the entry fees (social events like opening ceremony, prize giving, daily lunch packs for competitors etc ...) In the current form to be completed when applying to host an IOMICA event, there is no question about entry fee at all.

jeffbyerley · Post by **jeffbyerley** » 08 Jan 2009, 04:07

I think Zoran's comments are very relevant.
Cutting entry numbers can be counterproductive.
Fixed costs do not change dramatically if entry numbers are reduced.
One of the major costs (Judges/umpires), is a fact of life under the current conditions of running a major event.Reducing fleet numbers, and therefore entry fees would only compound the problem.
Unless the governing body allows IOMICA to run a major regatta under less restrictive conditions these costs will remain.

One of the obvious points to come out of the entry fee cost discussion, is that fee as a percentage of the total event cost for the competitor. That changes depending on where you live.
If you live in the centre of the universe(Europe), and the venue is in Europe, the entry cost is a larger proportion of the cost.
If you live elsewhere it does not play as large a part.

Perhaps someone could come up with a formula that keeps the entry fee down to an amount that "everyone" agrees with?.Whatever that may be?.

I personally think that the events could be run on a smaller budget.
Some previous Worlds have set a bench mark re functions etc. that add to the cost structure.

If a bare bones event eg. no opening ceremony, no organized fuctions at all, prize giving held at the venue etc., was able to be staged, and if it was possible to run with a reduced number of judged/umpires, (however that could be done?),would that satisfy the majority of competitors?.

Perhaps to operate that way, the event would have to renamed, and be a quasi "Worlds".You would than run the risk, (most likely), of the event having no recognition at all!.

Like all scenarios, there is no easy answer.

If someone thinks the entry fee is too much, what is reasonable amount ,and in what currency?
How do we cut the costs?
Do we run a Worlds in it's present setup, at all?

On a side issue to this.
Perhaps IOMICA should implement some steps to formalize the bidding for future events, in a way that there are set times for placing a formal bid, to follow up on any verbal committment made.

Barbados have come to the rescue with a committment to stage the 2009 event with a bare minimum of time to accomplish the task.
There was a risk that this years event would not have taken place, and it basically is being held because of a casual phone call to enquire re dates of the verbally proposed original 2009 event.

Obviously cost structures are a major hurdle for future events, and perhaps some detailed discussion can take place after this years event.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » 08 Jan 2009, 11:10

Jeff has made a very valid point. Claiming that something is to expensive isn't getting things anywhere.

The key question is, what IS the right amount for an entry fee and how can this be reached?

As I have been an active member of the German NCA I have been involved in some research arounf hosting an international event in GER. When looking at costs the single largest item was actually tranport, food and lodging for the jury as laid out in the regulation of IOMICA and ISAF RSD.

The costs involved and the risk arrising from this when in holding an EC or WC are the reason why Germany has not held a major int. event since the joint Naviga/IMYRU Marblehead WC in 1988.

When comparing a EC / WC with a national championship I can not see why the big events have to be so "over" regulated andthus loaded with costs. Looking at the UK nationals for example , they have allready got the flavour of an EC as sailors from a number of European countries attend them. We need to find a way that the "big" events are organised in a similar format allowing for a much more viable cost structure, with all skippers taking a more active role in holding the race. Take the umpiring, all skippers are having to pay for this while not really being happy with it. So why not change the championship regualtions and run the event with observers?

All this is not an issue that is unique to IOM. This needs to be addressed for all ISAF radio sailing classes. I think if we can reduce the necessary costs in holding these major events, we'll see more of them not only for IOM but also for M and 10R. Just think, when did we have the last Marblehead EC or even a 10R EC/WC?

Alfonso · Post by **Alfonso** » 08 Jan 2009, 13:29

I think that may be we are discussing for nothing. Everything started because Rob thinks that the entry fee for the next WC it is too expensive. A few posts later Zoran explained that one of the reason why Rob thinks it is too expensive is because of the depreciation of the GBP and of course it is clear that IOMICA can not do anything about that.

But there is something that IOMICA must do, apart from taking into account the lower entry fee for choosing the hosting country, and that is explaining in the NOR what the competitors get for their money.

I am sure that if organizers explain that, for example, competitors will get transport from the airport to the venue and return, 8 international juries/umpires, a control area 3 m over the sea level, three meals per day, an open ceremony with free beer, a tour guided during the day off and free sun lotion, probably everybody will be happy to pay only 500 USD.

In conclusion if we do not know what we are going to get for our money, how can anybody say that it is cheap or expensive?

RoyL · Post by **RoyL** » 08 Jan 2009, 17:53

All very good points here. A "cap" on entry fees going forward seems to be a reasonable reform we should be able to put in place. It also seems like we should continue to explore the question of a smaller World Championship that runs a week from measurement to closing.

As a first matter, it appears that the current Umpire system is something we can address before the Barbados race. So, a few questions. How important is the on water umpire system? Would a competitor based "observer" system be acceptable? Would not having on-water judges slow down the event and increase the level of protests? Any concepts of what system should be used?

Zoran · Post by **Zoran** » 08 Jan 2009, 18:58

I completely agree with Alfonso.

Regarding other problems here it looks to me that some proposals are coming out without really knowing the situation of the IOMICA events. I was on 5 out of 7 events listed in my first post as well as several championships before that. I remember the time when only observers were used when we had 60+ protest hearings without even watching the race as simply was not time for that. To use that system with HMS will very probably mean at least 40% less racing and more waiting for the protest hearing decisions. Does anyone believe that competitors would like this?

Regarding the jury expenses, I gave some estimated numbers in my first post and I really do not understand that this can be such a big part of total budget. Nigel, if you think opposite please give some exact numbers.

Anyway, for a World or Continental championship recognized by ISAF, an International Jury constituted according to the RRS Appendix N is required what means at least 5 judges with majority of them as IJ and no more than 2 members from same countries.

jeffbyerley · Post by **jeffbyerley** » 09 Jan 2009, 06:38

In reply to Zoran's last post.
The cost of judges/umpires is a substantial cost.Although this cost varies greatly depending on where the event is held.

Obviously the cost basis for the host country applies, as well as the distance travelled by the officials, and other factors.

If as in Australia where most of the judges were from overseas, there were considerable flight costs.If the host country was near a large base of officials, the costs would be lower.
The total expenses bill for the judges/umpires at Mooloolaba was about 30% of the budget.
This bill is not only airfares, but accommodation, meals, and ancilliary items.

Once again the questions need to be asked.
If by some majic wand we could do away with the judges/umpires, and saved whatever figure you may be happy with,let's say for example, the entry fee for Barbados was reduced to USD$350.00.Would that be acceptable?.
If we did not wave the majic wand, and the event was somewhere else with a lower cost structure and judges/umpires attended, and the entry fee was USD$400.00, would that be acceptable?.
Let's go the whole hog and say we have a low cost structure, no judges,(how under our present regs we do that I don't know),no functions etc, and the entry fee was USD$200.00, would that be acceptable?.

Would any of the entry fees stated above be a major factor in whether someone would attend the regatta?,bearing in mind the total cost of attending.

Some of the previous comments re numbers of competitors etc, need questioning.
If the scenario where the top 2 from each NCA competed, you could possibly end up with a far weaker entry than at present.
It would be like comparing sailing in the Olympics to World Championships where in the Olympics, country reps are limited in numbers, and not in the Worlds. The competition is normally much stron ger in the Worlds, where some countries may have some 4 or 5 top ranked skippers.

If the competition period was reduced to say 4 or 5 days, would that be harder for competitiors to justify the travel time and costs?

I guess the whole entry fee debate swings on whether competitors can justify the total cost to attend a World Championship?.

RoyL · Post by **RoyL** » 10 Jan 2009, 05:32

This is an open forum where all thoughts and ideas are welcome. Statements suggesting that some are posting "without really knowing the situation of the IOMICA events" or demanding "exact numbers" when there is disagreement does not foster a free flowing discussion. I believe all the posters here are knowledgeable and experienced and have the best interests of the IOM Class in mind.

I think it is indisputable (particularly in today's economy) that the costs of providing on water judging is significant. I think it is also indisputable that having too many protests "going to the room" will slow racing in a major event to a crawl. How we resolve this situation is at the heart of what we are doing and freely expressing different points of view helps us make the best decision possible.

Zoran · Post by **Zoran** » 10 Jan 2009, 09:36

I am certainly supporting free discussion on this forum and I see this forum as a place where someone can put an idea, others may say whatever they think pro or against this idea and on the end we can came to some conclusion and maybe have some improvements of our sport.

Discussion here started with amount of entry fee. Then proposals came out:
a) to get rid of judges/umpires
b) to reduce the number of competitors
c) to change the way how competitors are selected for the world championship from different NCAs
d) to reduce the number of days on the championship

On the end we may expect a proposal to cancel a World Championship in total. Alfonso rightly pointed out that the only question here is what is included in the entry fee or â€œvalue for moneyâ€

Alfonso · Post by **Alfonso** » 10 Jan 2009, 13:54

As Zoran said this post started as a discussion about entry fees but now I see we are discussing about Worlds and Continental Championship conception.

I donâ€™t have such a long experience as Zoran, who is probably the most qualified person in the class to speak about this issue because he knows very well what an International IOM event means from an organiser and jury point of view, but I have taken part in 6 (5 + BAR if I am lucky) from the Zoranâ€™s list of 8 events and my opinion, as a competitor is:

â€¢ When a competitor is thinking on going to an event does not only take into account the cost of entry fee, flight tickets and housing, there is also other costs which are different in every case like the familiar cost of leaving wife and kids at home, or the cost of taking a holiday (not earning money, which in economy I think it is called opportunity cost). So most of these costs: entry fee, housing, familiar and opportunity are directly proportional to the number of days of the event.
â€¢ I agree with Zoran that an International Jury is a fixed cost if we want to race under the ISAF rules (which I really want to), and one part of this cost is also proportional to the length of the event, specially if there are also local judges/umpires apart from the international Jury.

So taking into account these considerations I think we should go to shorter events. No more than 7 days and 5 better than 7.

But we all want to race and we all want an event with more than 20 races so, what can we do?

I have been in a couple of GBR Nationals and I was really surprised on how they manage this kind of events. They do not loose either one second and when the championship is over you are absolutely sure that no other race could have been done. Some of the ideas I have got from all of these events (international and nationals) are:

â€¢ No previous measurement and mid event measurement checks instead. Of course the tank and the scale will be available for competitors since the first moment.
â€¢ No open ceremony and friendly dinner the first day of the event instead.
â€¢ No day off. Racing is the most important thing. Anybody interested in tourism can travel a few days before the starting of the event or stay longer after the event. The Murphy Law says that the best day of the championship for racing is the day off.
â€¢ 4 fleets instead of 5. Probably we will have to change slightly the system of allocation of places.
â€¢ Short price giving ceremony instead of a dinner several hours after the completion of the event.

Finally I would like to say that the umpiring system that has been used in the last International events will work fine if the control area is at least 3m over the sea level. With a lower control area we will need more people watching the race, but the solution is to raise the platform not increase the people.

Rob Walsh · Post by **Rob Walsh** » 10 Jan 2009, 17:46

I am pleased to see all the opinions and ideas that have come up.

However I do believe with the cost of this event we will be lucky to fill all the places. I agree with what Alfonso said with regard to knowing what we will get for our money, as at the moment I know there will be a few people including myself having to seriously consider whether it is worth going!

As at the moment it looks like we will be getting nothing!

With regard to the judges I believe this seriously has to be improved if we are to keep with the judging system as in Dubrovnik even the judges were struggling to see the marks. Perhaps we should try and get judges that have some model yachting experience!

Perhaps IOMICA could support some skippers to help them get the qualifications required to become a judge, this way we might be able to get a better level of judging.

I am seriously concerned that a lot of people will start to become priced out of competing at the top level due to the ever increasing cost as the entrance fee rivals that of full size event, so it will just become who can afford to go will be able to attend.

It was suggested that we reduce the duration of the event and number of entries. I believe this would be a bad idea, as the last two event I have been too, there has been very little wind so imagine how little racing we would have got done. Ok yes, if you reduced the number of entries you may get a little more racing done, but as Jeff has said this will reduce the quality of racing!

Also how could u limit the entry to two entrants per NCA especially when you look at the fleets the top 20 boats from the last World Championships most the boats were from the same countries! I think this proves that the quality of racing would decrease if you reduced the number of entries for International event.

Graham J Elliott · Post by **Graham J Elliott** » 10 Jan 2009, 22:43

Obviously a few things need to be addressed, they need to be changed as soon as possible as the entries for major Championships are struggling with more skippers opting to sail in alternative events. We need to get back to basics, i have listed a few ideas.
1. start the event at 10am on a Sunday and finish at 3pm on the following Friday
2. no lay day, here to sail.
3. no measurement, although the measurement tank and scales are available and spot checks made throughout the event
4. only a prize giving ceremony is required to celebrate the winner
5. the 'buddy system' is a MUST
6. marks of the course should be a standard size, 400mm dia approx sounds good, with mark number on them equal to sail number size
7. fleet board and course board adjacent to holding pen
8. better communication, use the PA system
All the above are not difficult and are in our hands, the wind is not.

Sen Peter Gilkes · Post by **Sen Peter Gilkes** » 11 Jan 2009, 02:12

The Website relating to the IOM WORLDS BARBADOS 2009 is planned to be up and running by the end of next week.

We look forward to having you all visit Barbados and to welcome each of you to Barbados.

Keep and eye on our new site for news relating to THE IOM WORLDS BARBADOS 2009.

Bruce Andersen · Post by **Bruce Andersen** » 12 Jan 2009, 22:56

I really like the idea of doing away with the measurement day and having random measurement checks frequently during the regatta. I also would be in favor of giving the spot checks some teeth: eg a non-drop-able DSQ for the prior heat if the boat does not measure in.

If we made a "measurement station" with a certified scale, float tank, and sail measurement templates available for skippers to use at any time during the regatta, it would help skippers insure the legality of their IOM's.

Zoran · Post by **Zoran** » 13 Jan 2009, 07:58

Graham, I would add to the top of your list two very imoprtant points already proposed here

1. Control area as a raised platform at least 2 meters above the water level
2. Racing system which does not have any pressure on promotion or relegation

Third would be something that should be normally expeticng but unfortunatelly, not so much seen on the last events - acceptance of the penalties by competitors as required by the Sportmanship and the Rules at the beggining of the Racing Rules of Sailing.

desf · Post by **desf** » 13 Jan 2009, 16:03

I certainly don't have the any answers but can say that this event will cost me nearly 50% more than the last event which was already getting expensive. I have no idea how many other countries are affected in the same way. You can say it is down to the fluctuation in exchange rates as explained by Zoran. However the real problem in his model is that the EURO has got too strong against both the USD and the BP indicating a drop in the EURO figure. What happens in the real world when this happens is that the country involved is no longer in a position to export.
If you take the entry fee and devide by an average number of races of 24 each race becomes extremely expensive. Reducing the entry will increase the individual cost so one needs to address the real cost which unfortunatey is the International Umpires. We need to find away around this.

Graham J Elliott · Post by **Graham J Elliott** » 13 Jan 2009, 19:57

I agree strongly about skippers taking responsibity for a wrong doing, immidiately calling themselves for a penalty and then doing a 360, unfortunately far too many wait until they are called for a penalty by an umpire, hoping it went unobserved. The system used a while ago was very good, the umpire gave a limited time for the skipper to exonerate there wrong doing and do a 360 and if they did nothing about the incident and it was then called by an umpire, a 720 was required. Maybe this system can make a return, i would like to hear other views.
As for the platform, i agree that it should be 2m or more above the water if it is required. Some waters are better without it though, Krk, Fleetwood, Marseille being a few that spring to mind. The problem with the platform is that it can hold up racing unless the wind blows from the perfect angle, i have been to plenty of races where this was the case.
As most skippers seem to be against the umpiring system but we need them to conform to ISAF rules to run a 'European Championship' or 'World Championship' it would be interesting to hear other views about these Champioships still being run but under a differant name to get around this problem or until we can get an ammendment in our appendix.
My view is that the umpiring system is a good one but unfortunately there are only a handful of umpires that have grasped the speed and maneourverability of a radio yacht.

Rob Walsh · Post by **Rob Walsh** » 13 Jan 2009, 23:24

Iâ€™m sorry Zoran, Iâ€™m going to have to disagree with your idea of no promotion or relegation. The promotion and demotion system make racing fun and competitive. If you took this aspect away at this level, how could someone in the lower fleets aspire to compete with the guys in the 'A' fleet? The number of people who have gone from the bottom fleets to the top fleet is few but when someone does it they feel they have earned their place in that fleet and there is a sense of satisfaction too!

I think Graham has a very good point about the control area. If we can move with our boats we should be encouraging race committees to let us do. This would avoid a lot of unnecessary collisions. As this way itâ€™s not a eye sight test and may encourage people to be more honest as it would be a lot harder to go unseen!
With regard to the 720 turns I think this should be used if there is no conversation between skippers otherwise it could get silly like getting 20 penalty turns just for asking the question.
Could the problem of umpires not being able to keep up with the pace of the racing, could we use umpires with model yachting experience or set up a fund for IOMICA to train people up? Or again use the competitors to help e.g. the buddy system after all it is a proven system!

desf · Post by **desf** » 14 Jan 2009, 08:59

One solution to the Umpiring senario is to use as qualified as available yachtsmen not competing with radio experience and incorporating the "Buddy" system. Let them make the calls and as sportsmen we should accept the good with the bad. After all even in International cricket the umpires get it wrong. Sailing however has a big advantage over cricket in that we get discards.
I agree with Graham in that the if the umpire has to make a call the penalty should be 720. This will allow the skippers to control their own destiny for a short time before the umpire steps in and makes the call. I also have to agree with Rob and we cannot take away the promotion and relagation system unless the concept changes completly.

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