IOMICA Forum

I'm wondering if the ability to sheet in or gybe extremely quickly with one of the new Hitec digital arm winches could constitute a form of illegal propulsion. Certainly if one were to repeatedly pump the sails or execute a series of very fast gybes "unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations", that could be considered a prohibited action under RRS 42.2 (e).
However, I've heard people talk about the ability to "squirt away" from a leeward boat at the start by sheeting in very quickly. In the Arm Winch thread in General Discussion, the term "flick gybe" is used to describe what I assume to be a very quick sheeting in and out of the main on the run.
Is it possible that the Hitec digital arm winch allows one to sheet in so fast that it gives the boat a little push, like a fish flicking it's tail?
(btw... I'm not out to protest anybody's arm winch. Just thought this might be an interesting topic to kick around a bit.)

Dick Carver wrote:I'm wondering if the ability to sheet in or gybe extremely quickly with one of the new Hitec digital arm winches could constitute a form of illegal propulsion. Certainly if one were to repeatedly pump the sails or execute a series of very fast gybes "unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations", that could be considered a prohibited action under RRS 42.2 (e).
However, I've heard people talk about the ability to "squirt away" from a leeward boat at the start by sheeting in very quickly. In the Arm Winch thread in General Discussion, the term "flick gybe" is used to describe what I assume to be a very quick sheeting in and out of the main on the run.
Is it possible that the Hitec digital arm winch allows one to sheet in so fast that it gives the boat a little push, like a fish flicking it's tail?
(btw... I'm not out to protest anybody's arm winch. Just thought this might be an interesting topic to kick around a bit.)

My experience with the Hitec digital servo as an arm winch is limited as I have only been using it for a month. I reprogrammed mine to slow it down to about 2/3rds of max speed - my fingers are still too fat to deal with that much speed. Some of my my observations so far:

1- Flick gybe: after a lot of practice I learned the flick gybe manouver. Makes for extremely crisp gybes. The trick seems be to go DDW and quickly bring in the sheets and let them out just as quickly, at the right time so the sails swing across the centerline of the boat with the momentum created by quickly sheeting them in. Timing I find to be critical
I do see an advantage in being able to consistently gybe quickly, smoothly and decisively. WRT to RRS 42.2(e) (got my RRS book in front of me) I don't see the issue with the arm winch, and here is why: the arm winch itself does NOT enable skippers to violate 42.2(e) - any boat can violate 42.2(e) regardless of winch setup. I will grant that the arm winch equipped boat will be better able to do so.

2- Squirting away from a leeward boat: I've found that sheeting in too fast stalls the sails on my boat, the opposite effect of a fish flicking it's tail.

3- Responsiveness: To me the responsiveness of the digital winch for fine sail trimming, especially in shifty and/or gusty conditions, is great. Being able to quickly ease the sails slightly in an overpowering puff and quickly sheet in after the puff fades, for instance. The responsiveness is also great for manouvering in the starting line.

4- RRS 42.2(a) and 42.2(b) Drum winchs are not very effective for pumping or rocking. However, the digital servo arm winch is very effective - it is very easy to pump and induce rocking. It is not quite as easy with other arm winches like the Hitec 815bb because they are much slower.


Just some observations so far. More as I learn the boat and the arm winch.

Rey

I for one am very excited with the new trend of using Arm servos compared to the more expensive winches. I have used arm servos for other classes we sail like the Soling 1 meter and of course seawinds, etc. etc.

Dick's observation is correct, the flick jibe is a nice tool to have when you want to jibe quickly (eg suddenly got a lift). I do still try this with my highlander equipped with an RMG winch, but it is not really the same.

I don't think this is a rule breaker though, I full sized boat crew use this technique when jibing, when they tug on the main to force it to jibe, I don't think it can be considered "propulsion". If you do it several time in sucession without any cause, then that can be considered a rule breaker already.

As for the "squirting away". this is a grey area even with real boats. Though we are sure that there is a rule about "sail pumping" and from the description I think that is what it is. I do it once to accelerate, and this is where the grey area comes in. The rules allow it only once to get in plane, but consecutive pumping is again illegal. I think that it is a protestable act though, pumping your sails serval times because you have a fast servo. Heck it is protestable even if you had a slow winch servo as well.

TTFN
Arvin

Not having had the experience of a digital arm-winch (yet) I'm not sure if I can contribute any "facts", however (that never stopped me in the past ), my experience from the younger days and dinghy classes was that pumping was an extremely effective technique in light airs (of course, only used to return to the clubhouse quickly, never in a race ) - but the critical factor in it's "employment" was always manipulation of one's weight accordingly... That is, you heel the boat to leeward (as you sheet out) and bring it back up as you (quickly) sheet in.

Once you get good enough at it and do it standing up - you can literally fly in next to no breeze at all.

I, personally, can't see how the same would work without the "movable ballast" component - as you're bound by the simple "action-reaction" physics.

I'm sure that a quick sheet-in at start might give you some extra propulsion - but that's a pretty standard (and legal) practice in sailing. I seriously doubt that continuous sheet in&out would produce a beneficial net effect.

Having said that, if somebody passed me on the run using a succession of 10 quick gybes I would likely not be too happy about that.

Marko